stfuprolife:

(TW: Rape/Abortion) No male should be pro-life.

We’re having a political discussion.  Please be respectful and exclude any mention to any religion or any god.  It would be really appreciated.

 Ok. Here’s another question. Can anything and everything be justified by its nature of “choice”? I might say that raping little girls is a choice. But certainly you’d not want me to do that.

So what are you doing? You’re restricting my “choice.” You believe that I should not be granted a choice to rape little girls. So by your own definition you are an immoral person, because you are restricting my choice. MY position is that there are some things that are never justified, and require restriction. Human choice needs to be restrained.

But what you are saying is that everything should be a choice. You’re saying ‘it’s immoral to believe that someone shouldn’t be granted a choice.’ Well in most causes I’d agree. But get to human life, and whether or not to kill it, and I will stand up and say, “I will not let you make that choice.” 

The choice to rape an actual sentient girl is extremely incomparable to ending a pregnancy.  You’re taking the word “choice” out of context.  By eliminating a person’s choice to end a pregnancy is immoral, if you’re looking for specificity.  Why?  Because you are now taking this person’s control of hir body away.  Telling people that you believe that this person must bear the punishment of a pregnancy that was completely unwanted and sometimes unwarranted, then that is immoral.  For one thing, it is not your body.  It is none of your business.  You may be uncomfortable with abortions, but to believe no one else is allowed to make a choice within their reproductive rights is wrong.  To think otherwise is regressive.

Ok, let me ask another question. You said that murder is wrong.

Does that mean that you value human life? Do you believe that the life of a grown man is precious and ought not to be violated or destroyed?

I do value human life.  And I also value the quality of life.  I do believe that a life of a person separate from another person’s womb to be precious and to be not violated or destroyed.

Safe for who? The little baby being ripped apart by a suction device? Or being scalded to death by a highly acidic salt solution? Or, when all of his body excepting the head is outside the mother, his skull being punctured and collapsed, and his brain sucked out to make the delivery more convenient? 

Oh that’s all good and fine, but we want the “safety of the mother” because the convenience of the mother means more than the life of her baby.

And you said it’s fine with you as long as it’s legal? Does something being legal morally justify it? For a long time it was legal in medieval Spain for Christians to go around torturing “heretics.” Same reasoning?

If you want to continue this discussion, you have to use the correct terms so that everything would remain accurate.  There is no baby involved with an abortion.  Only embryos and fetuses, which are insentient and again, incomparable to those who are sentient and separate and physically autonomous.  Thank you.

Many of the procedures you are describing have been outlawed for a while now, these things can only happen before the viability of a fetus, deemed viable if extracted, the fetus can survive without the use of someone else’s body.  And if brought to such a case, the fetus was wanted to begin with.

The removal of a mere embryo/fetus via suction aspiration or medically seems fine.  Except here’s some more accurate medical information, the suction aspiration does not rip apart a fetus since this surgery 9/10 happens before the first trimester. It sucks out the fetus as a whole.  It can also be used after a miscarriage to clear leftover uterine content.  In every suction aspiration procedure, the fetus extracted is examined for completeness.

And yes, the life of an actual person should always be valued over an insentient fetus that is not viable to begin with.  If the fetus is viable, it will be saved.  That is always the case in a late term abortion.

You’re taking my words out of context.
I said that abortion should always remain legal and I would be fine with that.
But thanks for trying.
And again, avoid comparing fetuses to actual people.  It takes away from an accurate and factual discussion. 

Empathy for who? It seems as if the pro-choice position is anything but empathy. You are highly concerned for the mother, who doesn’t want to have the responsibility of a baby, or who will be inconvenienced by its existence, and who has already had decades of lifetime (and, unless she is killed in childbirth, will have decades more,) but you treat like trash her infant, who hasn’t even seen the light of day, cannot speak out in defense of itself, and has its entire LIFE ahead of it. Think about all the people that were murdered before they were even born, and think of the happiness and fulfillment that they could have had from life, just as you and I do. But no, we value the woman’s convenience more than that.

Again, it is an insentient fetus.  It cannot speak or think for itself because it is insentient, without sense or feeling or thought.  The mother should always have more empathy and sympathy than a mere fetus.  It is her body after all.  To be against such an idea is anti-woman and extremely oppressive.  The death of actual people is a tragedy.  The removal of someone’s fetus is simply a person’s choice.  It isn’t yours.  If you were ever pregnant, you will be granted the choice of keeping it or removing it.  It will be your choice.  If you are not able to get pregnant, then this conversation has been very silly.

What matters more, the convenience that someone has from avoiding the consequences of their actions and living childless, or the life of a human being? I’m surprised you believe in objective morality and favor the former. Even if I were to have to choose between the life of a woman who would die in childbirth and the life of her baby, I would encourage the woman to sacrifice her life for her child, because she has already had decades of life, and it is supremely selfish to choose your life over that of an innocent, who is in existence because of your actions. It is hard but if I were in that position I wouldn’t hesitate to give my life for my child.

And what people don’t realize most of the time is that there are other options. People rush into these choices not realizing that child-raising is a tremendously rewarding, enriching experience that brings so much joy. In their youthful foolishness, to paraphrase with all due respect, people imagine that life with a child would be horrible and miserable, and that you’d never have a free moment of your own. But simply isn’t true. Might be when you have ten kids, but just one? Come on.

And has everyone forgotten about adoption? I’d rather put my kid up to have a good life with people who love him, then allow myself to kill him simply because I wouldn’t. Who is the immoral one now, I ask.

The thing about the pro-choice position is the paradoxical position of empathy and caring concerning the woman who only wants an abortion because she doesn’t want to have to make a commitment, and the hateful murdering and cold disposition of a helpless infant. They just seem like polar opposites, yet people seem to support them simultaneously. Don’t think I will ever understand it.

I have to say it again, to make sure you get it: It is not an infant, child, or baby.  It is a fetus.

What matters most in this debate is the life of the person who will be forced to continue a pregnancy because it would make others uncomfortable if this person didn’t.  Getting pregnant is a consequence and abortion is not an easy decision for most.  Sometimes an abortion itself can be traumatic, especially with those who aim to harass the person in every way.  But overall, a pregnancy should never be a punishment.

Again, it is a fetus.  And you think people should give up our lives for mere insentient embryos and fetuses?  

It seems that you need more education on this topic.  The only reason a person would be saved during a late term abortion would be because the fetus is not viable to begin with.  There is no reason for a person to simply die for a fetus that will not even be viable.

Not every person wants to be a parent.  You may feel that way about parenting being enriching, but that does not mean simply feeling it will make someone else share that sentiment.  It is self-centered to think otherwise.

You’re not even mentioning ectopic pregnancies.

No one excludes the option of adoption.
It’s a valid choice.

But there are still people who do not want to be pregnant for another nine months just to cast off this child to a most likely terrible life.  There are already way too many unwanted children in the system, and this child would only be another one.
According to the National Adoption Information and National Family Survey, for every adoption seeker there are four children.  Annually, there is about 500,000 adoption seekers, four times that is how much?  How many unwanted children?  You can do the math.
If abortion was made illegal, that’s a possibility of another 1.2 million+ unwanted children in the system.

People support the pro-choice movement on a factual and logical basis, and basic empathy for actual people who would actually experience suffering unlike a fetus being removed.
An embryo/fetus does not feel or think until well after 24 weeks, when it is wanted.  But since pregnancy has several complications, more so than abortions, things happen.  And sometimes, a fetus must be removed during a late term abortion.  If it is viable, it will be saved.

Again, an embryo/fetus does not feel or think.
The person who you think should be forced into a pregnancy does feel and think.

Sources:

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/post/pn094.pdf

http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/statistics/adoption.cfm

http://www.womenshealth.gov/pregnancy/you-are-pregnant/pregnancy-complications.cfm

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Abortion_in_Australia

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/abortion.html

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/abortion-miscarriage

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/births_deaths_marriages_divorces/family_planning_abortions.html

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

http://birmingham.academia.edu/LisaBortolotti/Papers/70735/Stem_cell_research_personhood_and_sentience

http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/cduncan/230/adoption.htm

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/09/3/gpr090308.html

I’m reblogging this for the FACTS & also the resource links

(Source: abokononist)